(Says party remnants seek to undermine Iraqi reconstruction) (1860)

Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz says remnants of the Iraqi
Ba'athist Party "are out to undermine the reconstruction effort" in
Iraq "and we need to clean them out."

During a June 26 Washington Post interview Wolfowitz told reporter Tom
Ricks that ruthless Ba'athist remnants are killing Americans "in the
mistaken belief from [past U.S. actions in] Somalia and Lebanon that
we'll give up and go home."

Iraq is "a major, important battle," he said, "and we've got the
staying power to beat them."

While there is debate about the degree to which the Ba'athists are
organized in Iraq, Wolfowitz said they represent "people with a common
agenda" who are both ruthless and intimidating.

But he insisted that they lack two ingredients required of successful
classic guerrilla warfare: "They lack the sympathy of the population
and ... any serious source of external support."

Although the remaining Ba'athists, whom he likened to "a very large
Mafia group," have some support from infiltrating foreign fighters,
Wolfowitz said they are basically "on their own in a population that,
I think, can and will be turned."

The last vestiges of Saddam Hussein's regime are "quite dangerous and
... have got to be cleaned up," the deputy secretary said. The key in
winning the battle against them, he said, "is getting people to turn
these thugs in, and I think the more aggressive we are, the more eager
and willing people will be to cooperate with us." Gaining such
cooperation is easier, Wolfowitz said, in the south or north of Iraq
than in a Saddam Hussein stronghold like Tikrit, where Iraqis probably
have "to be convinced the Americans are winning" before sharing
relevant information.

Postwar policy in Iraq continues to focus on achieving a more secure
nation, forcing the Ba'athists into an increasingly weaker position,
restoring basic services, and developing "in the fairly near future
... a kind of a political pathway forward," Wolfowitz said. But he
also acknowledged that the pursuit of that policy sometimes results in
"three steps forward and one step back."

He insisted that "we have the great bulk of the population on our
side" in Iraq. Wolfowitz also said it would be helpful in the quest to
restore security and rehabilitate the country "if we can prove that
Saddam Hussein is dead at some point, or (is) at least detained."

The official also pointed to a recent survey taken by an Arabic
newspaper in An Najaf that found that 80 percent of those polled want
U.S. troops to remain in Iraq for a limited period, while 70 percent
rejected a prolonged U.S. military presence. Wolfowitz said he is sure
that the Iraqis "want us to stay and finish the job" and when it's
done they want "to be left to run their own affairs." That remains the
plan, he added.

Following is the transcript of the Wolfowitz interview:

(begin transcript)

U.S. Department of Defense
Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz
June 26, 2003

(Interview with Tom Ricks, The Washington Post.)

Question: OK, let's start the tape recorder. Are we going to change
U.S. policy in Iraq or do you think things are basically on course
despite this rash of attacks?

Wolfowitz: I think we've been quite serious for some weeks now about
the fact that we're dealing with a very -- what's the right word --
remnants of a really horrible regime much like a very large Mafia
gang. Ruthless and intimidating. And we need to clean them out. But I
think the basic approach that the military is using is a sound
approach. It's not to sit back and wait for them to attack us, it's
going after them. Going after the foreign terrorists that are trying
to kill Americans too, and we don't know the level of association
between the two, but I wouldn't say there isn't one just because we
don't know it.

Q: So you don't anticipate any change in direction or policy or
posture?

Wolfowitz: I think we did make a change in direction -- change of
direction is too strong a word. A few weeks ago I think we began, and
Gary Anderson was maybe a little ahead of everybody else recognizing
that -- almost perhaps because the regime failed so quickly -- that
the major remnants of the regime were still around, quite dangerous,
and they've got to be cleaned up.

I think we have two powerful things on our side. I think one is we
have a clearly superior force and we have the great bulk of the
population on our side. I think that's going to be a key ingredient
here, is removing the atmosphere of terror that they are still able to
cultivate. Obviously it will help if we can prove that Saddam Hussein
is dead at some point, or at least detained.

Q: I take it there's a pretty intense hunt for him going on right now.

Wolfowitz: I believe so. I can't say that I know in any detail how
it's being done.

Q: Could it be stepped up? Could the hunt be any more intense than it
is now, do you know?

Wolfowitz: That's the commander's tactical judgment. I have no idea.

It's mostly a function of how much intelligence you have. The same
people who think that you can automatically know where to look for
weapons of mass destruction. You need leads on both of these things.

You I think used the words "change of direction." I was just reading
some of the chronology of the post-VE [post-Victory in Europe] Day
experience in Germany and the number of audibles [quick changes of
plans] that McCoy and Clay had to call. Bremer is calling audibles and
Sanchez and Franks are calling audibles. It doesn't mean you're
changing your direction. In fact I guess I'd say the direction is
pretty clear. The direction, and sometimes it may be three steps
forward and one step back, but the direction is toward a more secure
Iraq, toward the Ba'athists I think overall in a progressively weaker
position, basic services being restored, and in the fairly near future
I think a kind of a political pathway forward as well.

And it's not uniform. It's much better in the south and in the north
than it is in Baghdad, and it's better in Baghdad than it is in that
sort of Sunni triangle north and west of Baghdad.

Q: What's your take on this pattern of events today then? This rash of
attacks in Baghdad. The first attack that I'm aware of on a civilian
occupation vehicle following the Shiite attack on --

Wolfowitz: I don't think I can make a pattern judgment based on one
day's events. These people are ruthless. They clearly are out to
undermine the reconstruction effort. They're out to kill Americans in
the mistaken belief from Somalia and Lebanon that we'll give up and go
home. We're not going to.

This is a major important battle and we've got the staying power to
beat them.

Q: You mentioned sort of the U.S. posture of being offensive and
taking the fight to them. Do you see any possibility of escalating? Is
there any way to be more offensive than we're being right now?

Wolfowitz: I think we've got some very inventive, aggressive
commanders and have a new Commander of Central Command -- Well, not
quite yet. Almost.

Q: Is he (Lieutenant General John Abizaid) going to be confirmed
today?

Wolfowitz: It's possible. I guess one shouldn't predict the actions of
the Senate.

Have you seen his testimony from yesterday?

Q:  I was there.  Yes.

Wolfowitz: He's got it right, in my view. And I think he's right that
there are these three different strands.

I do think the key in the battle against the Ba'athists is getting
people to turn these thugs in, and I think the more aggressive we are
the more eager and willing people will be to cooperate with us.

But again, it's easier to cooperate if you live down in Shi'a country
or up north. If you live in Tikrit you probably really need to be
convinced the Americans are winning before you -- before you share
information with --

Q:  -- turn these thugs in.  Yeah.

It's funny you mention the word "thugs" because actually one of the
impressions I took away from Iraq was the best way to understand
Saddam Hussein is to watch "the Sopranos" (U.S. television show about
the Mafia).

Wolfowitz: I've been saying "The Godfather" for 15 years. It really
is. It's the offer you can't refuse. It's the unbelievable brutality
combined with occasional lucrative rewards. And a code of silence.

I think that's why we're getting so little out of the high-level
defectors that we're holding, at least for now.

Q: You said we did make a change a few weeks ago. What did you mean by
that?

Wolfowitz: If I said we made a change then I think again -- I think
there was, and I can't say when it came in, but I think there was a
recognition somewhere after the statues fell in Baghdad, and I guess
I'd have to put it somewhere in May, that an awful lot of the violence
we're encountering came from Ba'athist remnants and some debate about
whether it's organized or not or loosely organized, but it's people
with a common agenda. I would say, as you alluded earlier, common gang
membership -- except this is a very large gang who have been abusing
their people for a very long time.

I guess this is, and I'm going to have to go, but I think it is worth
emphasizing that these guys lack the two classical ingredients of a
victory in a so-called guerrilla war, if that's what you want to say
they're conducting. They lack the sympathy of the population and they
lack any serious source of external support. They are getting some of
these foreign killers coming in, which is fine. It's better to kill
them in Iraq than have to have them come and get killed in the United
States. But basically they're on their own in a population that I
think can and will be turned.

It's interesting, there was a paper called, I have the Arabic name
here somewhere, at any rate, it's an Arabic newspaper in An Najaf that
published a public opinion poll. I can't vouch for its scientific
validity or sampling techniques, but the results sound pretty
reasonable. Eighty percent of those polled wanted the American troops
to stay for a limited duration; 70 percent rejected a lengthy stay by
the Americans. In other words, these people are happy to be liberated.
I'm sure they want us to stay and finish the job, and when the job is
done they want to be left to run their own affairs. That's our plan.
It's been our plan from the beginning.

I'm going to have to go, Tom.

Q:  OK, thanks very much.

Wolfowitz:  You're very welcome.  Bye.

(end transcript)