In an interview broadcast May 6 on CNN Turk, Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs Marc Grossman called on Turkey to play a constructive role in the region, as well as in post-war Iraq and at the United Nations. Acknowledging that there is "a sense of disappointment" in the United States that Turkey did not support the campaign against Saddam Hussein's regime, Grossman said there were several things Ankara could do to improve ties with Washington: - Continue to provide robust support to coalition forces in Northern Iraq. - "Make it easy" for non-governmental organizations (NGOs) to do their work in Iraq. - Convey to Syria the same message conveyed by Secretary of State Colin Powell on his recent trip: "there's a fork in the road; it's time to choose." "I also hope that Turkey, as we move forward, either in the United Nations or in post-war Iraq, will play a very constructive role in that area. There are big decisions to come for Turkey," Grossman said. The State Department official said it was not possible to continue the U.S.-Turkish relationship as if nothing had happened: "Something happened these past six weeks and it isn't just that we can turn a switch in our heads and say, 'Oh well, all things are equal now and we're going to go forward as if nothing happened.' Something did happen." Asked about Turkey's concerns over the potential for Kurdish terrorist groups to operate out of Northern Iraq, Grossman replied that the problem is one for the coalition to deal with, not Turkey. "Are KADEK and the PKK [Kurdish terrorist groups] still in Northern Iraq? Absolutely. But has there been a big resurgence of that terrorism? No. So when I tell you that we will deal with this issue and that our objective for Iraq, and I believe Iraqis objective for Iraq, is to cut off their ties to terrorism, that's what I believe," Grossman said. He declined, however, "to speculate on what it is we're going to do." He emphasized that the future of the U.S.-Turkish relationship "depends on what Turkey chooses to do. Turkey has choices to make." Following is the State Department transcript of the interview: (begin transcript) Department of State Washington, D.C. May 6, 2003 Interview by CNN Turk Marc Grossman, Under Secretary for Political Affairs (11:30 a.m. EDT) QUESTION: Marc, thank you for your time. That's wonderful. Now, I'm impressed of what we have heard so far in Washington about Turkey, Turkey's attitude. I sense a kind of a feeling of a betrayal. And it's more than resentment, it's more than disappointment, and I feel that it's serious. I mean, that's my feeling. Now how do you read, from your angle, this what I said just from Pentagon's angle? Now, how is it from your angle? MR. GROSSMAN: You're smart enough to know you're not going to hear me say, "The Pentagon thinks this and the State Department thinks that." I would answer your question as directly as possible, which is I would say that there is still a sense of disappointment in the United States about what happened in Turkey on the 1st of March. But let's be clear about a couple of things. First, Turkey's a democracy. Second, I believe that the Turkish Government went to their parliament on the 1st of March to win. They didn't go to lose. And they didn't win. And that's how life is. There was a vote then, a few days later, and we were able to get some of the things that we needed. But we have invested a huge amount of energy, our blood and our treasure into doing something we believe is important in Iraq. And I think it was too bad that Turkey wasn't more part of that effort, really, from the first of March. Now from my perspective, what else can I tell you? First of all, for us, Turkey remains a very important country. President Bush has talked to Prime Minister Erdogan, for example, over the past few weeks. Secretary Powell went to Turkey. And so what we want to do is get back into a conversation about Turkey, about the importance of Turkey, the importance of Turkey to the United States, and we hope, also, the importance of the United States to Turkey. QUESTION: But Mr. Secretary, how are we going to get back into that kind of conversation? Yesterday we heard from Dr. Wolfowitz very clearly that Turkey has to step up, says -- to say, "I made a mistake, and now let's figure out how we can be as helpful as we can to the Americans." How can Turkey be helpful? What can -- what kind of constructive engagement can you foresee for Turkey in Iraq, for example? MR. GROSSMAN: First of all, let me just say that, of course, Paul Wolfowitz is one of the most articulate defenders of the U.S.-Turkish relationship and one of Turkey's great friends in the United States. And I consider myself one of those, as well. So I hope you'll take seriously what he says because it's very important. The second thing I think we ought to recognize is that it's not like dialogue stopped with Turkey. I mean, when you say, "How do we get back into some kind of conversation?" -- we're in conversation every day. I will visit with the Turkish Defense Minister who's here in Washington. Secretary Powell has been, from time to time, just the other day, in fact, on the phone to Foreign Minister Gul. So there is this conversation that goes on all the time. You have an excellent ambassador here; we have a wonderful ambassador in Ankara. But if you ask me, for example, what are the three or four things that can be done? First, I hope that we can continue very robustly to have Turkish support for our forces inside of Northern Iraq. Second, I hope that Turkey would do all that it can to make it easy for non-governmental organizations and the other kind of private organizations to go into Iraq and do the kind of important work that we all want to see done in Iraq. Third, for example, I know that Turkey will be speaking to the Syrian leadership over time, and I hope that they will convey the same kind of message that Secretary Powell conveyed the other day when he was in Damascus, which is there's a fork in the road; it's time to choose. I also hope that Turkey, as we move forward, either in the United Nations or in post-war Iraq, will play a very constructive role in that area. There are big decisions to come for Turkey. What do you do with the Special Forces that are in Turkey? How, together do we get rid of the PKK, KADEK? So there are some big issues here. So we're not at a point where there's no dialogue. I think that would be not right for your viewers. But there's more we can do together and I think that those are important things to do. QUESTION: We've heard, really, enough of Turkey's mistakes and blaming Turkey from all -- but it takes two to tango. I mean, from your side, what was your mistakes? MR. GROSSMAN: What were our mistakes? I don't know. When I think about it, here's what I think about as things that we could have done better. We, I think, let Turks believe that somehow they were so important to this operation that we couldn't do it alone. And we said that wasn't true. The President said it wasn't true, and others said the same. But maybe we could have done more to allow Turks to recognize that the rhetoric that the Turks were using at the end of last year and the beginning of this year, that we had to do everything in just the way that Turkey wanted without any kind of reference to us, wasn't going to work. And the other thing is, you never know, when you're trying to do the very best you can, but of course we tried to set some very important deadlines. And I think those deadlines, some of them came and went -- part of that was politics of the United Nations, part of it was the politics of Turkey, but I think somehow Turks came to believe, and I don't know whose fault this is, maybe it's our fault, maybe it's the Turks' fault, but Turkey came to believe that we couldn't do this without Turkey. But the facts show that we were certainly capable of doing this with the allies that we have, just as we said we would. QUESTION: So what does it say about Turkey's importance then, in the region? I mean since Incirlik was not used in the operations -- QUESTION: That is not going to be -- QUESTION: -- what does that say for Incirlik, for example, in the future? QUESTION: And Dr. Wolfowitz was on the record and very clear that Incirlik is not really interesting anymore. MR. GROSSMAN: Don't forget, Incirlik is a Turkish base, so I can't answer that question for you. I mean it was Turkey who said, "No use of Incirlik." It was Turkey who said, "Finish with Operation Northern Watch." And so we'll see. I don't know how to predict the future. But I think as Paul told you yesterday, and I would certainly subscribe to the idea, we certainly don't want to be where we're not wanted, and that's been true all through this relationship with Turkey. So, again, I would ask you not to make a big crisis out of this. But there are some decisions to be made. I mean, Turks would want to think about this in a new way and we want to think about this in a new way. But when you ask me, "What is the importance of Turkey? For example, are we still interested in doing all we can to support Turkey's entry into the European Union?" Of course we are. "Do we still want Turkey to be a successful economic power in the region and meet its obligations to the IMF?" Of course we do. "Do we want to continue to have a conversation with Turkey about Cyprus and the amazing things that are going on in Cyprus in the last few weeks?" Of course we do. "Do we want to continue to talk to Turkey about Central Asia and about Iraq, about the region?" Of course we do. And so, look. This happened. There was a vote in Turkey on March the 1st. There was a war. It happened and we can't pretend that it didn't happen. But also it's very important that this relationship between the United States and Turkey continue for both of our benefit. QUESTION: I am sensing a bit of fine-tuning of what Dr. Wolfowitz said and what you are telling us. You are giving us the, if the glass is half-empty, half-full, you are showing us the empty side, I have the feeling, and Dr. Wolfowitz -- MR. GROSSMAN: I'm showing you the empty side? QUESTION: No, the full side. I mean Dr. Wolfowitz showed us the empty side. So where do we go from here? MR. GROSSMAN: Well, don't forget, Paul Wolfowitz is one of the most articulate proponents of the relationship between Turkey and the United States in Washington and perhaps in the whole country. And I'm proud to be part of the group of people here who wants to have a good relationship between Turkey and the United States, but again, there are a lot of countries who take the position today, "Well, there was this war, and the war is over, and now it was as if nothing happened and we can just move on." And I think for Americans and for Turkish people, they have to recognize that's not quite true -- that something happened these past six weeks and it isn't just that we can turn a switch in our heads and say, "Oh well, all things are equal now and we're going to go forward as if nothing happened." Something did happen. QUESTION: So should we really be offended or get nervous about what Dr. Wolfowitz said? MR. GROSSMAN: No, I hope you won't be offended and I hope you won't be nervous. What you all have been asking me and I think what you asked Paul was, "How do you go forward here? What happens next?" And I think all that I, from what you've been able to tell me and what he's been able to tell me, I think what he was saying is everybody's got some decisions to make. Turkey is a sovereign country. Turkey is a democracy. The United States is a sovereign country and a democracy. So we have some decisions to make and I don't think that should surprise anybody. QUESTION: Okay, then let's talk about the future, then, a little bit, and I will go back to your first answer to our questions. You mentioned PKK and the State Department's Terrorism Report, recent report, also acknowledges that there are PKK militants in Northern Iraq today. You know, terrorist organizations like Ansar al-Islam, for example, was dealt with. How is the United States going to deal with the PKK presence in Northern Iraq? MR. GROSSMAN: First, let's remember that -- I believe over the years -- maybe over 20 years, there's no country that has been stronger and more supportive of Turkey's efforts to defend itself against terrorism than the United States. So we don't start from zero here. We start, I believe, from the Turkish people's perspective, from a very great alliance between the United States and Turkey in this regard. What have we said all along about Iraq? That Iraq should be multi-ethnic, it should be democratic, it should have its territorial integrity, it should not have weapons of mass destruction, it should be at peace with its neighbors and that it should cut off all of its ties with terrorism. And if that's true, since I believe, and you believe, and we all believe that the PKK and KADEK are terrorist organizations, then that has to end, as well. QUESTION: Hmm, that's an interesting point. (Full off)* QUESTION: Yeah, I was just wondering, will the U.S. do anything? I mean, it's not, you know, we don't have Saddam Hussein anymore. MR. GROSSMAN: Right. QUESTION: You know Iraqi people are already in control. Kurdish parties with whom Turkey is cooperating to a certain extent are in the region, you are cooperating with them, but nothing happened. And of course, Turkishmen is very nervous about that. MR. GROSSMAN: But again, I think you start from today. Don't forget, before the 1st of March and around the 1st of March, what were the great Turkish fears about what would happen in Northern Iraq? One, that there'd be a huge refugee crisis. That has not happened. And two, that there'd be a great resurgence of PKK and KADEK terrorism. And that hasn't happened either. Are KADEK and the PKK still in Northern Iraq? Absolutely. But has there been a big resurgence of that terrorism? No. So when I tell you that we will deal with this issue and that our objective for Iraq, and I believe Iraqis' objective for Iraq, is to cut off their ties to terrorism, that's what I believe. QUESTION: So, if I understand well what you are saying, that you will deal PKK -- MR. GROSSMAN: We will. QUESTION: -- and, but in what way? I mean, if they don't deal -- if they don't do anything wrong or, meaning with the terrorism or like, so they will be able to stay? Is that what you are saying? MR. GROSSMAN: No. That's not what I'm saying. But on the other hand, I'm not going to speculate what it is that we're going to do. What we have said is that one of our objectives for Iraq and one of the reasons that we did this military operation, so that Iraq would cut off its ties to terrorism. And the PKK and KADEK are certainly terrorist organizations under anybody's definition. QUESTION: I have another question about Turkey's nervousness about Northern Iraq. Recently there was a delegation from the U.S. Congress in Ankara. They met with their Turkish counterparts and in that meeting, Turkish parliamentarians told the U.S. Congressmen that they did not want to see signs saying, "Welcome to Kurdistan" when they cross the border. Now there is a new reality. There will be, maybe an autonomous Kurdish region in the north. There will be Kurdish leaders who will be active in the central government in a democratic Iraq, how would Turkey reconcile its own Kurdish problem with the new reality in Iraq? MR. GROSSMAN: That's really up to Turks to deal with. But when you say that there'll be Kurdish leaders involved in the central government of Iraq, I would have thought from a Turkish perspective that that's great. The worry of Turkey is that we would not be in favor of Iraq's territorial integrity. Every single statement we've ever made is that we're in favor of Iraq's territorial integrity. And the idea that Kurdish leaders are part of a central establishment and a central government in Iraq, I would have thought would be a great plus to Turkey. You know what I have thought over the many, many years about the challenge of Turkish citizens of Kurdish origin, and that is that more democracy for all Turkish people solves a lot of problems in Turkey. And I think there's been tremendous progress made in southeastern Turkey over the years. Are we at the same rate of levels of violence we were years ago? Absolutely not. Is it the same kind of martial law and other issues? No, of course not. So there's a lot of progress there. There's still some things that need to be done, but I don't really think these are connected issues because there's going to be a strong, multi-ethnic, democratic Iraq. That's a good thing for Turkey, not a bad thing for Turkey. QUESTION: A few words about European Union and Turkey. MR. GROSSMAN: Please. QUESTION: You said that United States will be backing Turkish full membership bid. Is it going to be, for instance, as it was the case with Clinton administration? Is this administration still really determined to push on that? MR. GROSSMAN: You know what we did in the weeks before the Copenhagen Summit last year. Our President, our Secretary of State, all of us who believe in this connection between Turkey and the European Union right now, today, -- QUESTION: But now? MR. GROSSMAN: Absolutely. But again, the Copenhagen Summit was last December and President Bush spent a huge amount of time on this issue just as President Clinton did. This is a policy of the United States Government. This is government policy. And it's in our strategic interest. I hope it continues -- or I hope the Turkish people continue to think that it's in their strategic interest. QUESTION: So you're saying to us that Turkish people and Turkish Government should not be in doubt that the U.S. is firmly supportive of Turkey's European track? MR. GROSSMAN: In no doubt whatsoever. QUESTION: Because there have been people like Richard Perle, for example, spoke very publicly, very negatively about the EU and Turkey should not even pursue that track anymore. MR. GROSSMAN: This is my view, and I believe it's the view of the government, which is to say that it is in the strategic interest of the United States that Turkey and the European Union have the closest possible relationship and that someday Turkey become a member of the European Union. That's our policy. QUESTION: Who is deciding here as far as the foreign relations are concerned? Is it the State Department or Pentagon? Who has the upper hand nowadays? MR. GROSSMAN: The President of the United States decides. Everybody has talked about this 100 times over and that is, the President of the United States makes our foreign policy and this President, as everyone has said, is not afraid to get opinions. He's not afraid to have people come into his office and say, "Here's a way to think about it. Here's another way to think about it. Here's a third way to think about it." But it's the President that decides. QUESTION: Lastly, is the -- this famous model, role model for Turkey, a moderate Islam, democracy and all that -- is it still (inaudible) or it, with the new situation in Iraq, this approach is going to change? MR. GROSSMAN: I don't think the approach will change. In fact, I think as we talk about Iraq, one of the things people always say is, "These Iraqis, they can never be democrats. They are Muslims." And we always say, "Yes, but directly to the north of Iraq what do you have? You have a great country of 65 million people who are democratic." And so the idea that by people's culture or religion or color or geography, that they don't have the opportunity to be democrats, can't have a democracy, I think is completely wrong and Turkey proves that. Turkey proves that that is wrong. QUESTION: Last (wall?)* QUESTION: Okay, well, about the U.S.-Turkish relationship, going back to the original question. What is in the future in terms of military cooperation, political cooperation, economic cooperation? Are we going to be your best military ally or your -- one of the best military allies as we have always been and -- QUESTION: Strategic -- QUESTION: -- you know, this conversation about Korea, or now it is a different -- QUESTION: -- ballgame. QUESTION: -- era now? It's a different ballgame. Let's talk about other things. MR. GROSSMAN: I don't know how to answer your question because so much of that depends on what Turkey chooses to do. Turkey has choices to make. The United States has choices to make. But again, I think the fundamental alliance, our NATO Alliance, a 50-year alliance, the work we do together with Turkey, those things are still extremely, extremely important. But what happens in this area or that area, I don't know. Would I like Turkey to continue to be a robust, successful, democratic country with a strong economy? Absolutely. And will the United States do things to support that? Yes, absolutely. Do I think that Turkey is an important part, militarily, of the NATO Alliance? Of course I do. Turkish troops were in ISAF in Afghanistan. Now Turkey, I think, will have a lot to say as NATO now as an alliance supports people in Afghanistan. So there's still a huge amount to do here. But part of this is a decision for Turkey. Part of it's a decision for the United States, that's why Secretary Powell went to Turkey, was to have this conversation. And that's why I'm so pleased to be here today. QUESTION: But Mr. Secretary, I'm sorry, Mr. Secretary, you don't have any doubts about Turkey's choice at this point, do you? MR. GROSSMAN: I don't, but I'm not Turkish. Turkish people have to make their choices. QUESTION: Do you doubt that choice? MR. GROSSMAN: I don't doubt that choice, but I'm just trying not to be unhumble here. Turkey's choice is not a choice for me to make. Turkey's choice is for Turks to make. And so I wouldn't presume to tell you or any of your viewers what choices you should make. I hope I know what kind of choices you would make. I believe that you'll make the right choices in terms of the U.S.-Turkish relationship, but that's your business, not my business. QUESTION: Marc Grossman. Thank you very much. MR. GROSSMAN: Thank you. A pleasure. QUESTION: Thank you. [End]