Adds United States "will not allow for this to happen again"

The Bush administration will bring to justice everyone who was involved with the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib, said Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage.

In a May 28 interview with BY CNBC's Gloria Borger, Armitage said U.S. officials continue to be embarrassed over the abuses. He said the matter will be resolved "transparently."

"You can't make too much of it. This is a blot on our national honor and it has to be absolved. And we have to do whatever is necessary," he said.

The deputy secretary said that not only would the culprits be punished, but the Bush administration would also be "putting in place a system that will not allow for this to happen again."

Looking over the past year in Iraq, Armitage acknowledged U.S. miscalculations over the degree of Iraqi resistance, the importance of tribal chieftains, and the prevalence of crime in the country.

But he said the Bush administration could, at the same time, point to a successful and rapid military operation that helped to prevent the country's oil fields from being set on fire, thereby denying those resources to the Iraqi people.

Following is the transcript of Armitage's interview:

(begin transcript)

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman
May 28, 2004

INTERVIEW

DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE
RICHARD L. ARMITAGE
BY GLORIA BORGER OF CNBC

May 28, 2004
Washington, D.C.

(11:00 a.m. EDT)

MS. BORGER: And joining me now for a CNBC exclusive interview is Richard Armitage, the Deputy Secretary of State. Mr. Secretary, thanks so much for being with us tonight.

Let's start with today's new reports that Iyad Allawi has been selected as the new prime minister of Iraq's interim government. What can you tell us about that?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, good evening, Ms. Borger. I've seen the same reports. But we haven't heard yet from Lakhdar Brahimi, who will be unveiling an entire slate of government officials. And I did note, as you mentioned, that Mr. Allawi seems to have a large degree of support. But we're going to wait to see what Mr. Brahimi comes up with and those consultations are continuing right now.

MS. BORGER: And can you tell us, what would the U.S. think of this choice?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, he's quite well known to many of us. He seems like a fine guy, but what's more important is what the Iraqi people think of him. And that will be determined by the results of Lakhdar Brahimi's consultations.

MS. BORGER: Yesterday, Democratic Presidential nominee John Kerry started to outline his own foreign policy. And he charged that the Bush Administration has undermined American leadership in the world by abandoning alliance building. What do you say to that?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I've spent the last three and a half years, along with Secretary Powell, building alliances. The implication that the U.S. undermines alliances and goes it alone is simply false and it's belied by our activities in Afghanistan. In fact, it's belied by our activities in Iraq.

MS. BORGER: Well, he also went a step further, in fact, saying that this Administration has effectively bred instability around the world.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I was under the very strong impression that we were struck first. We didn't breed that instability. Enemies of ours sought us out and hurt us. We've not only responded, but the President has determined that he's going to carry this struggle through to the end, until we're victorious and freedom and democracy are upheld.

MS. BORGER: Well, you know, there are folks, in fact, who say that John Kerry's foreign policy vis-à-vis Iraq is not very different from your foreign policy vis-à-vis Iraq now at the State Department. What do you say to that?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I think our policy here at the State Department is the same policy as President George W. Bush's. We follow the President's policy, and we try to put it into effect as best we can. So I don't know how to answer it other than that.

MS. BORGER: Well, it is known, though, from Bob Woodward's book, which I'm sure you've read, as well as other sources, that both you and your boss Secretary of State Colin Powell were the most reluctant warriors in this Administration when it came to Iraq. Do you believe you were right now?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I believe that anyone who's been in combat, as Secretary Powell, or for that matter, myself, have been, should be reluctant warriors. And we've got a President who is strong and who wants strong views presented to him by strong people. We presented our views. We had our cut at the apple and we think we had a big effect on the President. And we're pleased to serve and put his policies into effect.

MS. BORGER: Well, General Anthony Zinni, whom I'm sure you know, former head of CENTCOM, has written a book in which he states that the U.S. went to a war with Iraq because of a misguided belief that somehow we were going to change the Middle East overnight. It's a very critical book, as you know. What's your response to his criticisms?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, my response is several-fold. First of all, he is a dear friend of mine. And he told me that in that entire book, the whole comments about Iraq are on half a page, and I haven't read it so I can't quite speak to it.

But the notion of trying to change the Middle East, that is to introduce a democracy to the Middle East, is a very worthy goal. It seems to me that if we're successful, we will have changed the Middle East for the better.

MS. BORGER: But do you believe the U.S. might have been a little naïve, in a sense?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, we've testified, my colleague Paul Wolfowitz and I, about some of the mistakes that we might have made going into this. But I don't think it was -- the mistake of naïveté was not one of them.

MS. BORGER: What was it?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, Paul has spoken about underestimating some of the degree of resistance. I've spoken to the fact that we didn't engage tribal chieftains, I believe, or tribal sheiks sufficiently. We underestimated the degree to which criminal enterprise had become a staple in Iraq.

So we made some mistakes; but all in all, I think we could also concentrate on some of the good things: the rapidity of the military operation; the fact that the oil fields were not -- because of that rapid operation were not burning and were not lost to the Iraqi people.

So you've got to look on both sides of the issue.

MS. BORGER: Well, speaking of mistakes now, we also have these awful pictures from the Abu Ghraib prison. Can you tell us how much impact that has had on American relations around the world, not only in Muslim countries, but in Europe as well?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I actually think the reaction in Europe has been a little stronger than in the Arab world, though certainly they have been very vocal about their disgust for these pictures.

We're all embarrassed by them. The only thing I can say is we have to be seen and, in fact, work every day to make sure that as we investigate this and we find out the scope of the abuses, that we bring to justice transparently everyone who is involved. And I think that will also say something about our nation and our way of life and the transparency -- and the transparent way in which we do our business.

MS. BORGER: Can we say with any certainty that there has not been behavior like this at Guantanamo?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I have not been to Guantanamo. I was under the impression that the ICRC comments about Guantanamo were not as harsh as those about Iraq and Afghanistan.

MS. BORGER: Now, some Republicans are saying that their fellow Republicans are making too much of the Abu Ghraib prison scandal and that they ought to just move on from it. What do you say to that?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: You can't make too much of it. This is a blot on our national honor and it has to be absolved. And we have to do whatever is necessary. And in our system, the way we get to the bottom of these things and the way we cleanse our soul, if you will, is by transparently focusing on the transgressions, making sure that those who transgressed are punished, and putting in place a system that will not allow for this to happen again. That's what's necessary.

MS. BORGER: Do you believe that Abu Ghraib was just the work of a few bad souls?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I'll let juries and competent authorities determine how many bad souls were involved. I think it certainly was an abuse of the system there, and I think the Army has put in place investigations to find out if it were wider spread. I hope not. But we'll see.

MS. BORGER: Now, you have said -- in a recent interview on CNN, you said that, "We're in a bit of a hole around the world." What do you mean by that?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I was responding to particularly the Abu Ghraib revelations that did put us in a bit of a hole. I think we stopped digging, finding ourselves in a hole immediately and started digging out by the investigations and by the -- frankly, by the Senate and House hearings on the matter.

MS. BORGER: Well, does America have a credibility problem also, given the fact that we haven't found the weapons of mass destruction that we said were there and that some of what Secretary Powell testified to at the United Nations has not been proven yet?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Secretary Powell has already spoken quite a few times about his own distress at the information which was provided to him, which turned out to be sourced to people who were deceptive. So, to that extent, it's a problem. But I think his own personal credibility has not suffered. I think our credibility as a nation is not based on any single issue; it's on a whole host of things, such as our general approach to human rights, our general approach to democracy and dignity for every person. So I think you can't judge an entire nation's credibility on one issue.

MS. BORGER: Now, we've talked tonight about the possibility of a new prime minister of the Iraqi interim government, but what concerns you most about this June 30 turnover?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, clearly, the security situation. I don't think anybody who looks at Iraq thinks their security situation is going to get dramatically better before the turnover. In fact, those enemies of freedom will be intent on trying to cause further havoc and further disruption. So that's the big concern.

MS. BORGER: Now, you're proposing a resolution in the UN to get other countries involved in a future Iraqi government. Are you going to have a multinational UN protection force, and does it have to offer some kind of an exit date for people to get involved?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, in the resolution that is being discussed in New York, one of the aspects of it calls for countries who are willing to bring forward some level of troops to provide protection for the United Nations for their activities. Regarding an exit date, Resolution 1511, which has already been adopted unanimously, calls for an exit date, if you will, at the end of the political process. But there's no -- there would be no harm in adding some other date to this resolution that's being discussed.

MS. BORGER: So you're saying you might do it?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Sure.

MS. BORGER: Yeah. Now, John Kerry has also suggested NATO involvement in Iraq. Would that be difficult?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, counting ourselves, there are 16 NATO members who are already involved militarily in Iraq. We have had discussions with NATO. I'm going to Brussels in a couple of days. I'll further these discussions. But I don't think we're quite at a situation where NATO is ready to get involved in Iraq, but we're going to discuss it further with them.

MS. BORGER: You're about to leave for an overseas trip to Brussels. What do you say to Americans who are about to travel abroad this summer?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I'm traveling on United Airlines, so they're welcome to join me or on any other airline of their choice. (Laughter.)

MS. BORGER: Okay, and let me ask you one last question about your own future,
Mr. Armitage. A year from now, if President Bush wins reelection, do you expect that you and your boss and very good friend, Colin Powell, will still be in place serving at the State Department?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Nice try. (Laughter.) We'll leave that up to the President. We serve at his pleasure and we'll see how it works out.

MS. BORGER: If asked, would you serve?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I've never accepted or declined a job which hasn't been offered.

MS. BORGER: Well? Well? Do you expect it to be offered?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I think that would be a bit presumptuous, wouldn't it?

MS. BORGER: Okay, I tried.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Nice try.

MS. BORGER: Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage, thanks so much for being with us, and have a good holiday weekend.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Thank you. Ms. Borger.

(end transcript)

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