State's Armitage says Iraq and regional reform efforts also on agenda

President Bush and Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak will discuss Israel's proposed pullout from Gaza, the situation in Iraq, and the Greater Middle East Initiative during their April 12 meeting in Texas, according to Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage.

In an April 7 interview with Al-Ahram reporter Khaled Dawoud, Armitage said an Israeli disengagement from Gaza could be a positive step towards peace "if it is seen in the context of the roadmap, first of all; and second, if it's seen as a beginning step and not the end of the process; and third, if it doesn't prejudge final status negotiations." The State Department released the transcript of the interview April 9.

As part of an Israeli withdrawal, some Israeli settlements would need to be evacuated, Armitage said. He added that the Bush administration wants the settlers "to be resettled in areas that are not problematic for us."

Armitage repeated U.S. opposition to Israeli threats to exile or assassinate Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, saying either move would "bring about more problems than it seemed to solve."

Turning to the Greater Middle East Initiative, which proposes assistance to Arab governments and nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) to carry out economic, political and educational reforms, the deputy secretary said many in the Middle East had the mistaken impression that the United States and other countries were trying to impose reforms "from the top down."

"[W]e're trying to shape this Greater Middle East Initiative in a way that it adds to the reform efforts which are going on in the region. It doesn't replace them. It doesn't take them over. It doesn't impose on them," he said.

"[I]f countries don't want to participate, there's no pressure to participate. But if there are NGOs or there are movements toward education reform and the rest of it, we want to ... assist them," said Armitage.

On Iraq, the deputy secretary said Shi'a cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, whose militiamen have launched an uprising against Coalition Forces, "does not enjoy widespread popular support."

"He is the son of a man who was a great cleric and was killed brutally by Saddam Hussein. Having said that, he's not the man his father was. He clearly is intimidated by a democratic process ... [a]nd he is the one who is, in our view, standing in the way of the democratic process," said Armitage.

Muqtada al-Sadr is also responsible for the murder of the prominent Shi'a cleric Abd al-Majid al-Khoei, he said.

Armitage asked the Arabic media to take note that Iraq's more influential clerics have not issued fatwas, or religious rulings, supporting al-Sadr.

Following is the transcript of Armitage's interview with Al-Ahram:

(begin transcript)

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman
April 9, 2004

INTERVIEW

Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage By Khaled Dawoud of Al-Ahram

April 7, 2004
Washington, D.C.

(4:00 p.m. EDT)

MR. DAWOUD: My first question is that this is President Mubarak's visit in the United States in about two years, and is like just a general question. What are the topics that you expect to discuss with the Egyptian leader?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, first of all, clearly we'll want his views on the situation with Israel, the unilateral Gaza situation -- the pullout that's suggested by Minister Sharon. Minister Sharon will be coming later, and it's very important to have President Mubarak's views.

Second of all, we'll want to talk to him about his views of Iraq.

Third, I think it will be interesting that President Mubarak has worked so hard to try to get the Arab League somewhat back on track, that -- to get an appreciation of where he thinks that is.

And fourth, our President will want to assure President Mubarak that when we talk about the Greater Middle East Initiative, or the so-called GME, they're not talking about some plan of the G-8 to impose on top of an already wonderful culture and political system reforms, but just to support those reforms that already are blossoming up. In Egypt, for instance, NGOs developing and all of these things. So it'll be a pretty good agenda in other words.

MR. DAWOUD: Okay. Yeah, okay. What about bilateral relations? How would you describe bilateral relations between Egypt and the United States at this stage?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: They've gotten on the upswing. I think we had -- we had a lull for a couple of years, and I think they're on the upswing. I noticed that, not because I went, but during my trip in October, things seemed to get a little better.

I think we've had a lot of engagement with General Suleiman recently, and I think that's helped put our relationship back together. We had a very good MCC. Both sides thought that was very important. So I think we're back in a more traditional state of U.S.-Egypt relations, which is good.

MR. DAWOUD: Mm-hmm. Sir, there were reports out that the United States recently approving $300 million in assistance to Egypt, economic assistance to Egypt, and there were more talks of loan guarantees.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: For Israel?

MR. DAWOUD: No, for Egypt, for Egypt.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I don't have this. Have you got any --

MR. DAWOUD: It was announced by the Egyptian Ambassador, $300 million in --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Do you guys know anything about that?

A PARTICIPANT: No.

MR. DAWOUD: -- extra aid. That was the amount of money, I guess, which went into the $87 million last year and you were still negotiating over it, you know?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I'm unaware of it, but I'll check for the record. I'm just unaware of it.

MR. DAWOUD: Uh-huh. The 300 -- I mean, we talked last year, the -- I think Egypt was granted $300 million; Jordan was granted a certain amount of money that --

A PARTICIPANT: As part of the supplemental?

MR. DAWOUD: Yeah, supplemental, yes.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Oh, well, whatever money is in the supplemental is done. But I don't recall. Do you?

A PARTICIPANT: Not in new money.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Jordan got some money because, of course, they were a frontline state in the war. But maybe I'm just not informed, but I don't know about Egypt.

MR. DAWOUD: Sir, just to go back to the roadmap issue.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yeah.

MR. DAWOUD: The unilateral, you know, projects, that are being, you know, proposed by Sharon. We've all recently read in the newspapers of possibly exchanging letters of assurances between Israeli and the United States. Can you tell me a little bit more about this?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Look, we -- I can just say generally that the whole question of a disengagement with the Israelis from Gaza is one that could be a positive step if it is seen in the context of the roadmap, first of all; and second, if it's seen as a beginning step and not the end of the process; and third, if it doesn't prejudge final status negotiations.

Those are the kind of things we're discussing with the Israelis to assure ourselves that it's completely consistent with the roadmap, doesn't prejudge final status -- with negotiations on final status issues. And that's why we have had the back and forth with the Israelis.

MR. DAWOUD: Were you happy with the answers they gave you concerning your concerns?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, it's not a matter of being happy, look, these are processes. They're processes. I don't think with any discussion between any two states, whether it's Egypt and the United States, Egypt and Israel, Israel and the United States, that one would say they're happy. These are discussions that continue. You get understanding of people's views. You moderate your views. Maybe they change their views, and it's just the beginning -- or it's just part of a process.

MR. DAWOUD: Are the Israelis offering any assurances, as you, Your Excellency, mentioned that this will not be the last set, that this is part of the roadmap that --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, they have said that this is consistent with the roadmap, and we have to make sure, and this is why we have these discussions with them. So it's not a matter of assurances yet. It's a matter of being sure we completely understand.

We may be speaking in English together, but we've got to make sure we understand the English the same way. We also have to -- you've got to under -- because in a disengagement from Gaza, there are huge equities for Egypt, huge. And so Egypt is going to have to assure herself that both of --

MR. DAWOUD: Both of what, sir, equities for Egypt?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, you've got the whole Philadelphia strip.

MR. DAWOUD: Uh-huh.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Which you'll certainly want to have. I think, they'll want to have and you will want to have the confidence that it's secure, and these are things that I think Egypt wants to assure herself of.

MR. DAWOUD: Sir, one point of contention, possibly, lots of people are confused about, what's the role of the Palestinian Authority? Mr. Sharon, Prime Minister Sharon does not want to deal with the Palestinian Authority, with Arafat or anybody else. What about the United States in this case?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, on Arafat, I spoke publicly about it. The other day, I was asked a question about whether we had -- basically, Mr. Sharon had said something about he doesn't have a life insurance policy.

MR. DAWOUD: He's marked?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Something like that.

MR. DAWOUD: Yes.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I made the point that we are opposed to exile, and we're opposed to assassination. We ourselves won't deal with Mr. Arafat, but we do deal with the Palestinian Authority. When Mr. Fayyad was here yesterday -- I was gone, but he was around town -- or the day before.

So we do deal with the PA. And I think once -- recently, until the bombing, the most recent bombing, there were even the possibilities of some meetings between the Israelis and Abu Alaa, but after the bombing that went away.

MR. DAWOUD: Mr. Armitage. Some Arabs are worried because the United States has a declared policy, for example, against liquidation, against killing. Like even when you asked about Hamas leader Sheikh Yassin, we were told that your position did not change, but nevertheless, the Israelis went ahead and did it.

So what's the guarantee in Arafat's case? You know, you say you're opposed to Arafat's killing, but then Mr. Sharon says --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, what's the guarantee? There is no guarantee other than a guarantee of good common sense.

MR. DAWOUD: So --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: And I think that all the nations, whether it's Egypt, whether it's Jordan or the United States, we're all opposed to this. The elimination and exile of Yasser Arafat would bring about more problems than it seemed to solve. So I think this -- we're all kind of united in this.

MR. DAWOUD: And what about the assassination of Sheikh Yassin? And did this have a lot of common sense, and later the U.S. veto of --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, when Adam and others spoke publicly from the podium about our view in cleared remarks, the -- and I don't think that any of us were -- let me put this correctly -- Sheikh Yassin was not particularly a good person, from our point of view. This is well known.

The other side of that though is one has to think through the consequences of the action, and the consequences in the Arab world of this action were not insignificant. So when any action will take -- will cause a reaction, this did, and I think it's, at least in the short-term, it's really complicated things.

MR. DAWOUD: I want to move onto other things, but last question on the Middle East. There was a delegation. You used to have, Mr. Burns, Mr. --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yes, right, and Mr. Abrams.

MR. DAWOUD: -- and Eliot Abrams, they were there, and like, as you said yourself, Mr. Mubarak is coming, Sharon is coming. So do you expect something to come out soon? I mean, where will these -- where it will be leading to, with all these consultations?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, we've got -- look, in the next month, we've got President Mubarak. We've got Prime Minister Sharon. I think His Majesty --

MR. DAWOUD: Abdullah.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: -- King Abdullah is coming a little later. So we're going to get a real -- we're going to have an intense period of concentration on the region and on the peace process. So though I don't expect something particular necessarily to come out of it, I'd be very surprised if at the end of this month we all didn't have a common view of the situation. I think that's what we're looking at.

MR. DAWOUD: And then what will be your next step, like a plan announced by Sharon, a pledge to pull out from Gaza at a certain date. What should the people expect out of this?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, but it's not as easy as that. There are settlements that have to be evacuated, that have to be resettled. We want them to be resettled in areas that are not problematic for us.

There's the whole question of security in the south, the so-called Philadelphia strip. I think there are -- we'll want to know, as I said, that they are not -- this is not the end of a process, but one that's: 1) consistent with the roadmap; and 2) that there's a plan for West Bank as well.

MR. DAWOUD: But no more serious moves before the U.S. elections?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: This is -- I can't predict that. You're going to have a month of April that is totally, for the most part, focused on the Middle East and focused like a laser for a time, notwithstanding the fact that we've got Afghanistan and Iraq going on, on the peace process. And that's not a bad thing. It's a good thing.

MR. DAWOUD: Sir, just to bring you back to the issue of the Greater Middle East Initiative, I know that even from my sources within the State Department that maybe there was a problem that this map, the blueprint which was published in Al Ahram was not even presented to Arab governments in advance, and that caused a little bit of misunderstanding. I know --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yeah.

MR. DAWOUD: Go ahead, sir.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, go ahead. You have to ask your question.

MR. DAWOUD: No, I was just saying, you know, now we've been also reading reports and some publications of the U.S. press saying, okay, let's forget about the Greater Middle East Initiative, even as a title, and get something like the Alexandria Initiative, which has been presented by Arabs and such.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I think that we probably got off on the wrong foot because many in the Arab world were left with the impression that the Greater Middle East Initiative was some sort of thing to be imposed from the top down, and not take into account such things as unique cultural nationalistic attributes of the 22 or so different countries who are involved.

We tried to correct that a little bit. My colleague, Marc Grossman, went out to the region and he did something that's very hard for Americans -- almost unprecedented. He listened. (Laughter.) And he came back, and we're trying to shape this Greater Middle East Initiative in a way that it adds to the reform efforts which are going on in the region. It doesn't replace them. It doesn't take them over. It doesn't impose on them.

But every country in the region, almost, has different areas of reform and democratization, whether it's education -- in some of the states, for instance, education of women is very pronounced. And we think this is a good thing. Some not so much. Others have a great deal of attention on the question of transparency in governance. Others not so much.

So where there are NGOs, where there are either nascent or ongoing efforts to reform, then the G-8 does want to talk. Let us see if we can assist it.

MR. DAWOUD: What is it going to be called then? Or is it also going to be called the Greater Middle East Initiative?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I don't care what it's called.

MR. DAWOUD: Uh-huh. But is theirs --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I mean for the agenda item on the G-8, it's called the Greater Middle East Initiative, but the title of it doesn't matter, frankly. It's the fact of it and the fact that it's not imposed on the countries, and if countries don't want to participate, there's no pressure to participate. But if there are NGOs or there are movements toward education reform and the rest of it, we want to -- and the G-8, we want to, I think, assist them.

MR. DAWOUD: What about the Alexandria Initiative, sir? I mean, are you aware of it?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Oh, am I ever. When I saw the announcement out of Alexandria, the Egyptian Ambassador happened to be here. He was in -- he was about the first guest I had after I saw that, and I said to him, it just took my breath away. It was a pretty far-reaching declaration.

Now, having said that, I haven't heard much from it since. But I'll leave that for you to dig out. But that was a very stellar call for reform.

MR. DAWOUD: So maybe you would endorse it in the G-8 meeting, say --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, listen, I'm not going to be at the G-8 meeting. We'll let our betters figure that out. But I'll tell you, for this building, the Department of State, really impressed and moved by the far-reaching nature of the Alexandria -- I'd call it a declaration, but that's probably too strong a word.

MR. DAWOUD: Sir, now I want to move to the hot topic of Iraq, which is really causing a lot of concern in the region. And I happen to have the Al Jazeera channels here at home, and I also, of course, watch the local American channel.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: So do I.

MR. DAWOUD: So --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: But you have the advantage. You can listen to it in the Arabic. I have to get the translation.

MR. DAWOUD: Exactly. So, I mean, it's two worlds apart, really.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yeah.

MR. DAWOUD: I mean, and what I see on Jazeera is like a near total revolution in Iraq. And I just want to get your assessment right now with all the terrible figures we're getting: 32 soldiers killed, American, in three days; 200 Iraqis, reports of women and children being shelled in the siege of Fallujah. Where do you see things, sir?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, first of all, I think that I don't have to tell you, or I think any of our Arab friends, how much legitimacy or lack of legitimacy does al-Sadr possess. The fact of the matter is, as far as I can see, thus far, he does not enjoy widespread popular support; he enjoys the support of the Mahdi, the so-called "Mahdi Army," and his followers. He is the son of a man who was a great cleric and was killed brutally by Saddam Hussein.

Having said that, he's not the man his father was. He clearly is intimidated by a democratic process. He clearly is trying to make hay under the umbrella of the Arbayeen, which will start on the 9th. And he is the one who is, in our view, standing in the way of the democratic process.

And sooner or later -- so we have two things going on. We have the situation in Fallujah, which is primarily some hard core Sunni former regime elements and some foreigners fighting our U.S. greens; and in the south, primarily around Najaf but Al Kut and other places, we're having difficulties with the Mahdi Army.

They've chosen to fight. We'll fight. And they will see that we understand strength as well. It's not just Iraqis who understand strength. We understand it.

But I think you should take note, and Al Jazeera should take note, that the people of Iraq and the other clerics who have more meaningful and larger followings have not chosen to issue fatwas supporting al-Sadr. They're sitting on their hands.

MR. DAWOUD: So now, I mean, in the United States, I mean, like people now speak of possible civil war in Iraq, not so many people tend to agree with your description and say that it's only the problem (inaudible).

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, we have been aware of the possibility of civil war.

MR. DAWOUD: This is not threat of the attack?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: This is not civil war. If there is someone who wants to have civil war, you listen to Al Arabiyya, I'm sure as well as Al Jazeera, and you listen to the tape of Zarqawi. And he is intent, and he's said it, on killing Shia during the Arbayeen to try to bring about a civil war. He's said it. He's written it. There's no -- I think there's very little question who's trying to do that. But I don't think he'll be successful.

MR. DAWOUD: But there are also reports, even in the American press today, of the Sunnis and the Shia joining hands for the first time in one quarter in Baghdad to shoot at U.S. troops. This is a development as well.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I read a report of that, and it seemed to me, the way I interpreted it -- and perhaps I misinterpreted, but I don't think so -- is that some, in this case, Shia -- I thought it was up closer to Fallujah, actually, where the Americans were moving toward Fallujah, which is primarily Sunni, and on the way they had -- they exchanged fire with some Shia militiamen who we believe were associated with al-Sadr.

MR. DAWOUD: I'm sure you've also seen the statements by Senator Edward Kennedy, which was like really pretty shocking, I guess, you know, saying that Iraq is - President Bush's Vietnam -- again, these words he repeated more than any time.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I'm sure Mr. Kennedy knows a lot about Vietnam. He was serving in the Congress at that time. I don't think this is of that similarity. We don't feel that's the right language to use or the right rhetoric at this time. He can disagree with the President and the President's policy. The fact of the matter is the majority of the Members of the U.S. Senate and House both voted to support this policy and Mr. Kennedy did not. I will acknowledge that. And Mr. Kerry voted for both.

MR. DAWOUD: So, I mean, basically, you're telling the Arab readers that with all the violence that's taking place right now in Iraq, the situation remains under control? From the view of the U.S. Administration, you see no reason for worry?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, and I -- listen, I've got --

MR. DAWOUD: It's just a problem of Muqtada al-Sadr and a few thousand supporters?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No, no, no. I did not say that. And I'll tell you, my view is that I worry each time a son or a daughter is killed of American families. I've been in combat and I know what those young men and women are feeling, and I bleed for them.

I also bleed for the innocent Iraqis who just want to get on with their lives and they're drawn into this by, in this case, al-Sadr. So don't say that I'm not worried. I worry when any citizen of my country --

MR. DAWOUD: No, I'm saying worried about the situation in Iraq, not about citizen here.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yeah, we're worried, but I'm not panicked about it. Sooner or later, this was going to happen. Sooner or later, we were going to have to disarm the militias. There is no question. Sooner or later, Iraqis are going to have to stand up and make their own choice.

And I think what al-Sadr has done is precipitated the attack on him sooner than would be the case normally, but it was coming. He was responsible for the murder of a truly grand cleric, al-Khoei, about a year ago. The warrant which has been issued was issued by an Iraqi judge. And I'm sure Al Jazeera forgot to mention the particulars that are listed in that warrant. This guy is a criminal.

A PARTICIPANT: Sir, we've got about --

MR. DAWOUD: Okay, just my last question. Continuing. Concerning, again, just to go back to the response that the United States, for example, is having in Fallujah, you know, and the measures that are being taken now against al-Sadr people. The number of victims is too high. I mean, don't you think, sir, that that figure is --

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I don't know what the number is, and I don't think you do.

MR. DAWOUD: Today, for example, they're speaking about dropping a 500-ton bomb on a mosque which killed 40 people.

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: I saw that.

MR. DAWOUD: I mean, the estimates of the veteran news agencies, around 190 to 200 people. I mean, my question is: Aren't you worried that this harsh military response is going to produce more bad feelings towards the U.S. troops?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: You know, that's -- this is the dilemma. But I think that our Egyptian friends would tell us that Iraqis only respect force.

MR. DAWOUD: Mm-hmm. And you believe this?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, I'll tell you, we get advice from the region. We do not want to use force indiscriminately. As I say, we bleed when this happens. Not just because it gets a backlash, but for the fact of it. If innocents are killed, then we're upset about it.

But it was difficulties and trouble coming out of Fallujah, IEDs and attacks, which is disrupting the ability of many of the thoughtful, visionary people in the so-called central triangle, the so-called Baathist triangle, that is getting in the way. So, sooner or later, we had to take it.

But I can repeat to you, our soldiers are as devastated as anybody if a civilian is inadvertently killed.

MR. DAWOUD: So June 30 deadline remains, will remain firm, June 30?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Yes, that's correct.

MR. DAWOUD: I mean, so many people now say that it doesn't -- it's meaningless. But what will happen on June 30, sir?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: Well, we'll turn over sovereignty, but security will remain with the coalition, security responsibilities.

MR. DAWOUD: So you're not considering at all taking that date, for example, to a later date?

DEPUTY SECRETARY ARMITAGE: No. Big no.

(end transcript)

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